On again, off again: The Condor Veritech(?)

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Brooklyn Red Leg	On again, off again: The Condor Veritech(?)	Lead	[-]
Commander Posts: 699 (February 18, 2008 09:06 PM) Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Well, I had thought we actually had this discussion finished years ago. Apparently, I was wrong. Now, according to Gideon at Palladium, Tommy says its not a Veritech, but a Battloid. Funny, why the hell would they put wings and the forearm engines from the Alpha on the Condor? Then, of course, there were Tommy's own words in IRC chat several years ago as well as the 180 degree change in the Invasion comics. The transformable Super Condor is also apparently not proof of anything either. Now, because Deific NMI used the mod hammer to squash the thread (instead of demanding Wolfe to moderate his comments or apologize) there is no way to discuss this issue at the forums. Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise! Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition
CavScout		#1	[-]
Admiral Posts: 1256 (February 18, 2008 10:08 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Vigorous discussion at the Palladium boards seems impossible. CavScout "The role of the Cavalry is to add colour, dash and daring, to what would otherwise be a mindless shitfight amongst grunts."-Australian Army saying This is my "mod-voice". If I post in red, it usually means knock whatever it is off!
rtsurfer		#2	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2027 (February 20, 2008 04:41 PM) Fleet Admiral Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TPTB change their minds every 5 mins... there are aspects of the show (including mecha) that they apparently can't decide what they want to do with them. There have been a number of things they told us that they outright reversed on or completely changed, some for the better and others for the worse (IMHO... LOL). BTW, I seem to recall 2 (or maybe 3?) threads at RT.com where we were discussing which mecha was transformable and what modes they had. IIRC, the Condor and Logan were two of the main ones discussed because of how the Logan was discribed in the infopedia and the transformation references to the Condor in the new (at the time) comic. TPTB were aware of these discussions as Lowell and I were having private discussions/arguments with Tom about them at the time (concerning possible changes to the infopedia). "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O) click banner to visit rtsurfer's ROBOTECH archive
ShadowLogan		#3	[-]
Lt. Commander Posts: 245 (February 21, 2008 11:53 AM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Brook: I tend to agree about the "Condor" being a Veritech. And as I pointed out in the previous thread I think the "Condor" is really an Alpha Battloid with add-ons like the VF-1 had in "Miss Macross". Which doing the "point of view" thing from the Star Wars OT, is what we are seeing. An early Alpha model with add-ons that can't transform. I think I have the sections ID that are the add-ons, and a few "maybes". Its these add-ons that seem (at least to me) that make transformations difficult. If we treat them as add-ons to be jettistioned for alt modes, it becomes a lot easier to get a transformation. The F-15A-D fleet in use by USAF currently has a manufacturing defect (not present on the E-based models) and has resulted in their grounding, USAF is trying to use this to get more F-22s even though the F-15 fix is cheaper. Without knowing more from the RPG writeup (or lacking an Inforpedia entry). Perhaps something similiar is what we are seeing here. This early Alpha model was produced, but found to have a defect after being put into service. It was found to be to costly to fix those produced, to get a return on the investment the REF developed the add-ons while producing new Alphas that did not suffer the same problem. And we have the "Condor". Though even in this case I can't see why they would leave the wings on. The FA thrusters, added mobility maybe (unless they are made into some type of beam cannon with a coincidence look). rtsurfer: Are these the threads you mentioned? Discussion on what defines G and B modes: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=1238660&forumid=9 Which spunoff of: http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=1231994&forumid=9
rtsurfer		#4	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2028 (February 21, 2008 12:37 PM) Fleet Admiral Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	ShadowLogan, thx 4 the links "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O) click banner to visit rtsurfer's ROBOTECH archive
Brooklyn Red Leg		#5	[-]
Commander Posts: 706 (February 25, 2008 08:19 PM) Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	GODDAMNIT! Deific NMI locked my 2nd thread for no reason at all. This is abusive actions by the Head Moderator at Palladium, especially considering that Tommy f*cking said the Condor TRANSFORMS on Friday night's SSL Podcast! Condor Ground Attack Veritech page 3 Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise! Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition Last Edited By: Brooklyn Red Leg February 25, 2008 08:22 PM. Edited 1 times.
ShadowLogan		#6	[-]
Lt. Commander Posts: 247 (February 26, 2008 02:50 PM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Brook a better course might be to bring this up at Robotech.com to get them to change it. As I understand it anything to do with the Robotech RPG produced by Palladium needs to be approved by HG. You can try all you want to get Palladium on your side, but if HG says No to it, they have to go with HG. rtsurfer, your welcome.
Jasonc		#7	[-]
Private First Class Posts: 20 (March 1, 2008 01:28 AM) Private Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The way I look at this change in what is supposed to be canon is more like a big "F!@# You" from Harmony Gold. First off, I have lineart showing the fact that it does transform. Secondly, if you were thinking of RT from a technological standpoint, a flying Battloid would be completely useless. Multi-function veritechs would've made the condor they are trying to make canon now, stupid and a waste of time. Thirdly, as BRL has pointed out, what the hell would the folded wings do on a condor if it doesn't transform. Fourth, why call it a "Condor" if it's a human looking battloid. I really do hate to say this, but Robotech has been going downhill for awhile now, and here's just another layer of crap from on top of the hill that eventually, always tends to roll downhill to all the fans. I hope they eventually decide to be smart about the Condor decision and make it do what it is supposed to do, TRANSFORM. Unfortunately BRL, I don't expect them to change their minds on it, of course, that would go against having any reason or logic in that.
Brooklyn Red Leg		#8	[-]
Commander Posts: 707 (March 1, 2008 08:00 AM) Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Jasonc wrote: The way I look at this change in what is supposed to be canon is more like a big "F!@# You" from Harmony Gold. Yes, there is that fact. First off, I have lineart showing the fact that it does transform. Christ, any chance you could share a copy with Palladium, or even post it at Palladium's website to show that it does so to give players an option? Secondly, if you were thinking of RT from a technological standpoint, a flying Battloid would be completely useless. Multi-function veritechs would've made the condor they are trying to make canon now, stupid and a waste of time. There is also the fact that the TO&E already has a 'flying Battloid' in the form of the Cyclops/Monocle Recon Battloid in use by the Army of the Southern Cross. And we know from both The Sentinels scripts (specifically Script Book 2) AND the novels that there were Southern Cross forces attached to the REF. In the series, they are the Ground Forces of the UEF, the Army basically. TR Edwards is a Colonel in the Army, and is the Ground Forces commander of the REF. In the novels, they form the basis of TR Edward's forces, but are considered a separate entity from the RDF. Thirdly, as BRL has pointed out, what the hell would the folded wings do on a condor if it doesn't transform. As well as why the hell are there jet engine intakes on the chest with no nozzle on the opposite end for the exhaust/thrust to spit out of? Why are there engines on the forearms? Why do the wings have air brakes on them? Why does the groin assembly have the exact same kind of door on it that the larger Beta does in Battloid...the door that forms the munitions bay where the glide bombs are stored? Fourth, why call it a "Condor" if it's a human looking battloid. More like 'Why call it a Condor' if its not a flying vehicle? Especially since all the other non-transformable mecha from Mospeada all had names based off of big cats, wild dogs or pugilists. I really do hate to say this, but Robotech has been going downhill for awhile now, and here's just another layer of crap from on top of the hill that eventually, always tends to roll downhill to all the fans. I hope they eventually decide to be smart about the Condor decision and make it do what it is supposed to do, TRANSFORM. Unfortunately BRL, I don't expect them to change their minds on it, of course, that would go against having any reason or logic in that. I've had people ask me why I care. I do so for one reason, the Sylphide. If the Condor won't transform, and we can prove it was supposed to in the OSM, then the Sylphide doesn't have a hope in hell. Doesn't matter its called a Veritech 3 different times in the series and one other time a Robotech (as opposed to conventional) fighter. Doesn't matter it has all the parts necessary to transform. Doesn't matter it has seams in all the right places to allow for transformation. Doesn't matter that it has parts that would NEVER be put on a non-tranforming fighter in the fashion they are done so on the Sylphide. To paraphrase Peter Walker, If someone can look at that design and not see that it could transform 'shows a lack of imagination'. Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise! Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition
Jefffar		#9	[-]
Lt. Commander Posts: 208 (March 1, 2008 08:21 AM) 2nd Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Could and does are not the same. But you are playing the wrong angle. HG decides what is and isn't transformable, not Palladium. Trying to get Palladium to rewrite the entire mech with less than a week to go to printer on a book that is already delayed several months and they need HG to confirm the mecha is transformable anyway (and last they asked they were told it wasn't) just isn't going to fly.
ShadowLogan		#10	[-]
Lt. Commander Posts: 249 (March 1, 2008 03:20 PM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Secondly, if you were thinking of RT from a technological standpoint, a flying Battloid would be completely useless. Multi-function veritechs would've made the condor they are trying to make canon now, stupid and a waste of time. Not necessarily. Military aircraft are still designed, built, and use propellers instead of jet engines. One would think technologically propeller aircraft would be obsolete, and yet... Something like that could apply here. Thirdly, as BRL has pointed out, what the hell would the folded wings do on a condor if it doesn't transform. Per the Invasion Comic, we know the "Condor" can fly, as it is shown escorting Lancer's Cyclone Unit. This means it has flight capacity in this configuration in Earth's Atmosphere. What if the "wings" are not wings at all, but rather "tails" for higher speed flight/manuevering than what was shown in the comic. And currently obscured by the "wings" are the exhaust ports from the shoulder intakes? (Though the intakes could duct the air to another location in the body). Alternatively, perhaps they fold out to function as wings in that mode, and in the stored position they still cover the exhaust ports. In an earlier post I mention something about the FA thrusters. Either they are a type of beam weapon that resemble Alpha Thruster ports OR they are actual engines for added manuverability. Fourth, why call it a "Condor" if it's a human looking battloid. Well, the Production related drawings for Sentinels on the Legacy DVDs call it "Invader". Sounds a lot better to me than "Condor". There is also the fact that the TO&E already has a 'flying Battloid' in the form of the Cyclops/Monocle Recon Battloid in use by the Army of the Southern Cross Are they expected to perform the same missions? The Monocle sounds like a Scout type vehicle and the Condor an attack platform. Different roles, so I see no reason they can't have more than one type of "Flying Battloid" in service. Personally I don't think the "Condor" can transform as presented, I think Tommy mentioned something to that effect as to why they made it a "failed" VT. If certain areas though are turned into removable modules, one is left with an Alpha like vehicle that could easily transform. Jeffar is also right, harping about it to Palladium won't get anything changed. HG has the final word. You need to get them to change it. I'd imagine there might be legal trouble if Palladium ignored HG's decree on Robotech related issues. Last Edited By: ShadowLogan March 1, 2008 03:25 PM. Edited 1 times.
Brooklyn Red Leg		#11	[-]
Commander Posts: 708 (March 1, 2008 04:20 PM) Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	ShadowLogan wrote: Jeffar is also right, harping about it to Palladium won't get anything changed. HG has the final word. You need to get them to change it. I'd imagine there might be legal trouble if Palladium ignored HG's decree on Robotech related issues. If Jasonc can hook me up with pictoral evidence, I intend on posting it in the Officer's Forums. As for Palladium, I'm more pissed off about DeificNMI's hamfisted tactics in shutting down my threads lately. He closed my thread and then banned my IP, which Col_Wolfe happens to use (cause he moved in with us a month ago due to marital problems), instead of asking Wolfe to moderate his comments or remove his comments. I can only post there cause of my laptop, instead of being able to use my desktop computer. I personally don't give a flying f*ck what they think there, he is NOT me and I am NOT him. He isn't my brother (though, to be fair, when the three of us roommates go out, people ask if we're related). He is one of my best friends, not my alter ego or my blood relative. Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise! Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition
Jasonc		#12	[-]
Private First Class Posts: 21 (March 2, 2008 01:37 AM) Private Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"Not necessarily. Military aircraft are still designed, built, and use propellers instead of jet engines. One would think technologically propeller aircraft would be obsolete, and yet... Something like that could apply here." OK, using that explanation, would you use a propeller plane to fight against a F-15, F-18, or F-22? Granted, we do use A-10s in today's combat, but the alpha can serve the same role as the Condor, with more functionality. Against an enemy like the Invid, speed and the functionality of the multi-purpose alpha makes sense, a non-transformable Condor, doesn't. "Personally I don't think the "Condor" can transform as presented, I think Tommy mentioned something to that effect as to why they made it a "failed" VT. If certain areas though are turned into removable modules, one is left with an Alpha like vehicle that could easily transform." If I could present these pictures of a transformable Condor, I would, but as I am bound to secrecy of these pics, I cannot. I guess it will be that it will give you the option to either believe me or not, but for me, the evidence is seen. It's been a ride with this Condor issue, and I'm not too deep into this issue. I know a lot of fans who get upset when stuff that should be canon is simply changed because of laziness, or just to say "I'm gonna decide what I want because I feel like it". I haven't talked to BRL hardly at all, but he isn't the first person that has brought this issue up to me. It seems to be an issue of not caring what the fervent fans have been used to and want. Probably other fans could care less to some degree or another, but I do find it funny that I see more and more fans who have something else to throw rocks at. I'll see about getting the pics of the transforming Condor to you, BRL.
FPilot		#13	[-]
Admiral Posts: 1348 (March 2, 2008 01:04 PM) Arcadia Squadron Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I see all this and wonder what happened to the "Robotech Wars" game from GenCon '06. Did HG crack down on it or something? (I sat in on one of the demos, but wasn't in a position to participate or network with the session's host.) Stephen "FPilot" Bierce Pilot's Log: http://frustratedpilot.livejournal.com
Brooklyn Red Leg		#14	[-]
Commander Posts: 709 (March 2, 2008 01:41 PM) Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	FPilot wrote: I see all this and wonder what happened to the "Robotech Wars" game from GenCon '06. Did HG crack down on it or something? (I sat in on one of the demos, but wasn't in a position to participate or network with the session's host.) Personally, I think its because Tom Bateman is no longer with HG. Let Harmony Gold and its licensees know that you want Robotech Masters Merchandise! Sign the petition and help us! Masters War Merchandise Petition
ShadowLogan		#15	[-]
Lt. Commander Posts: 250 (March 3, 2008 08:42 AM) 1st Lieutenant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	OK, using that explanation, would you use a propeller plane to fight against a F-15, F-18, or F-22? Granted, we do use A-10s in today's combat, but the alpha can serve the same role as the Condor, with more functionality. Against an enemy like the Invid, speed and the functionality of the multi-purpose alpha makes sense, a non-transformable Condor, doesn't. Historically speaking it is possible for a propeller plane to sucessfully engage a jet (happened in Vietnam & Korea). It would also depend on what the plane is armed with. Helicopters would be another example, they are slower than fixed wing aircraft, but are still used. Technologically speaking we have the capacity to produce Tilt-Rotor/Wing designs for decades, yet they are not that prevalent. Some helicopters can even be equipped for Air-Air. Can you be sure the Alpha and (presumably seperate) Condor Battloids have differing flight speed and manuverablity? The Condor can also support increased weapons load (in number, size, or power) and/or armor to compensate for its lack of transformation systems. It would also be easier to maintain and train. Its engines could be more powerful to if it doesn't have to make way for transformation related equipment (or equipment off-set by the equipment). The Condor though appears to be an escort unit in the comics. It was said/implied to be escorting the Conbats, and later shown to escort the Cyclone team. If I could present these pictures of a transformable Condor, I would, but as I am bound to secrecy of these pics, I cannot. I guess it will be that it will give you the option to either believe me or not, but for me, the evidence is seen. Don't take this the wrong way, but the way your phrasing this makes me skeptical about the validity of these pics. And if you do the mental "jettision" of components (listed elsewhere) as if the Condor was an Alpha Battloid with add-ons (like the VF-1 uses) you get something with a strong resemblance to an Alpha Battloid. One could even say it is an early model Alpha as each model does have distinct traits. The smaller feet, lack of shoulder pod, and undersized arms might be the most characteristic ones the add-ons are removed.
rtsurfer		#16	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2030 (March 3, 2008 04:02 PM) Fleet Admiral Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I wrote this on RT.com 3 1/2 yrs ago: The new comics said the Condor was non-transformable which opened up a huge debate over it as many had accepted it was based on that OSM reference and some of the design details (like the wings). Tommy intially indicated the Condor wasn't transformable (said he couldn't find the OSM reference in question or anything in the OSM to support it) but he might be able to retcon it into a VT then later said he had designed (at least) two modes for it and would include them in the Condor entry which was supposed to go up after issue 4 came out (um, how long ago was that ). Excerpts from a rt.com chat on 3/8/04: Tommy: btw, I'll post the cover of RT Invasion #4 this week - Condor action galore GIR_Writing: I'd like some close-quarters VHT combat Hover_Tanker: VHT!!! Hover_Tanker: WITH VHT's!!! RyoFire: HT the condor is a destroid so be happy it's in there Tommy: ryo - it's a transformable, but not enough room in story to take advantage of the different modes GIR_Writing: can we expect to art of the modes on the site in the infopedia? DraQ: Tommy: so Condor is not a battloid, right? it's a full mode veritech fighter? Tommy: gir - actually yeah, I showed the guys who cam to January's signing sketches of the Condor's guardian mode RyoFire: oh great the condor issue GIR_Writing: awesome Tommy: once these are cleaned up, we'll post the modes in the Infopedia DraQ: nice DraQ: "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O) click banner to visit rtsurfer's ROBOTECH archive
Darkwater	Condor	#17	[-]
Lt. Commander Posts: 403 (March 13, 2008 12:48 PM) Lt. Commander Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I remember the seeing the lineart of the transformable condor back in '03 when Tommy would hang out with the fans. He passed it around and I remember someone (won't say who) taking a photos of it with a cell phone cam. So yes, those pics do exists... somewhere.
rtsurfer		#18	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2033 (March 13, 2008 10:44 PM) Fleet Admiral Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=2792&forumid=9 Steve's Japanese is far better than ours, and he pointed out that the OSM does describe it as transformable. The sound of me smacking my forehead could be heard throughout the DC metro area. :^ "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O) click banner to visit rtsurfer's ROBOTECH archive
harkavyr		#19	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 66 (March 14, 2008 04:32 AM) Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Which piece of OSM says it's transformable? I went through everything BRL posted with my friends (native speakers) and we didn't find anything that indicated it transformed. No mention of "henkei" (transformation). Unless it was something we didn't see?
rtsurfer		#20	[-]
Fleet Admiral Posts: 2035 (March 14, 2008 06:41 AM) Fleet Admiral Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=441771&forumid=9 RobMorgenstern Subject: Condor OSM Posted on: April 8, 2002 - 8:53:55 AM The OSM is either Entertainment Bible#16, B-Club Special #9 or the Animedia Color Graffiti. I don't recall which off of the top of my head. I'll have to check when I get home from work.... Text translations: "Armo Solder from the #1 Earth Recovery Operation period" "Also known as the original model of Legioss" "Possible to transform into a fighter type" "rtsurfer's two cent..." ;O) click banner to visit rtsurfer's ROBOTECH archive

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On again, off again: The Condor Veritech(?)

On again, off again: The Condor Veritech(?)